Chatting in #terrafusion:
shambles  = Me
Frib      = Top notch Q1 DM mapper
Paul      = Ex-MPQ p1mp, now an Inspector
Mindcrime = Chief Nehahra p1mpster
Elek      = Top notch Q1 SP mapper
Vondur    = All round map d00d
Barium    = Not sure, something to do with maps I expect

...
<shambles> you know what i think
<shambles> i think hell could be eternal conciousness, but without any stimuli
<Frib> shambler.. that sounds pretty bad :)
<Paul> no shit
<shambles> yeah...
<Frib> at least endless torture would be less boring
<shambles> like just a completely blank existence....no sensual input....forever
<Mindcrime> there's a problem with endless torture
<Mindcrime> you'd get used to it after awhile
<shambles> i dunno though
<ELEK> sensual, or sensory?
<shambles> i think you'd go insane....
<shambles> oops 
<shambles> sensory
<Paul> shambler : bit like going to birmingham then?
<Frib> yes you'd go insane
<shambles> (couldn't think the right word)
<shambles> yeah
<Frib> but then you could entertain yourself
<shambles> or like living up north
<Paul> fuck you shambler
<Paul> its not that dark
<Mindcrime> Oh, I figured out the whole afterlife thing :p
<Paul> we do have lights
<shambles> well that's the thing fribbles, if you went insane your mind would prolly be 
  escaping it's situation
* Mindcrime <-- wise man
* Mindcrime understands the cosmos intimately
<shambles> the....the agony of such a blank existence would be the torture....but the 
  mind couldn't survive for it to be eternal torment
<Mindcrime> death is nearly undecribable
<shambles> and unspellable =)
<ELEK> I am not worried about death
<Mindcrime> well, the thing is, I'm not sure why people fear death
<Mindcrime> other than the fact that their life in this form will cease to carry on (:
<Frib> err
<Paul> mind, you're a real cheery chap
<shambles> mmmm
<Frib> probly cos their life will cease to carry on
<Frib> in any form
<shambles> yeah
<Mindcrime> that's where you're wrong
<Mindcrime> it does
<Frib> I mean it'd be comforting to believe in reincarnation at least
<Vondur> Death is certain, life is not...........
<ELEK> prolly cos they don't know
<Mindcrime> :)
<Frib> I'd rather be a tree or a fucking hedgehog than nothing
<Paul> beer is certain
<shambles> i think...
<Frib> unfortunately I can't believe in that one
<Vondur> hehe
<shambles> i'd love to be a fucking hedgehog
<Frib> and as for the organised religions.. ahha
<shambles> hell, i'd love to be fucking a hedgehog =)
<Paul> i'd like to be a car
<Frib> well I wont go into that
<Paul> then i could splat you shambler
<Frib> lol paul
<Mindcrime> I'm not talking about religions, I'm talking about death :)
<Vondur> hmm, is this a mapping channel?  :)
<Frib> yes
<Paul> no
<shambles> <Frib> there are channels on other networks for this discussion
<shambles> lol
<ELEK> yes
<Vondur> hehe
<Frib> unfortunately, as far as I can gather, dead is dead :)
<Frib> <Mindcrime> I'm not talking about religions, I'm talking about death :)
<Paul> yep
<Frib> same here
<shambles> unfortunately...
<Mindcrime> well, if you want to know what death is like I could explain it to you (:
<shambles> i think people fear the chance of their life being curtailed rather than death...
<Frib> you dead are you?
<shambles> if their life is good, the chance of it running out sometime when they haven't 
  had enough
<Mindcrime> have you ever looked at a picture, a photograph, of say Times Square on 
  New Year's Eve?
<Paul> i think shambler is right
<shambles> but the actual "being dead" bit shouldn't be scary
<Paul> be a hedgehog
<Paul> no need to worry about bills and getting up in time for work
<shambles> once you are dead it doesn't matter, but before that it's a premonitional fear
<Frib> yes
<Paul> just curl into a ball and round down hills
<Mindcrime> or even a texture in Quake, from a distance it looks like one entity
<shambles> mmmm
<Mindcrime> but up closer you find its comprised of smaller parts
<Frib> that's what I've always figured shambler
* shambles senses a profound point
<Mindcrime> a crowd is one concept, an entity, the "crowd"
<Frib> I mean.. not much to fear about death
<shambles> yeah
<Frib> I mean once you're dead, you're not gonna give a shit
<Mindcrime> when you draw closer, it's people comprising that crowd
<shambles> but there's a lot to fear about not fitting enough into life
<Mindcrime> but once that crowd disperses
<shambles> given it's the only chance you get
<Mindcrime> it is no longer a crowd
* Paul tells Shambles to put his profound point away
<Paul> thank you
* shambles impales Paul with his profound point
<Mindcrime> yet the parts that make it up are not gone
<Paul> arrrgghhh
<shambles> heh
<Paul> your fucking knob again
<shambles> go on mindy...
<shambles> YOU BROUGHT IT UP THIS TIME!!
<Paul> everytime, can you not control it?
<shambles> IT WAS HAPPILY MINDING IT'S OWN BUSINESS!!
<Paul> no, YOU brought it up
<shambles> mindy, go on...you have a point?
<Paul> it ain't my knob
<Mindcrime> you want to know what death is.  Think of yourself as a crowd, all the 
  pieces that make you up.
<Mindcrime> Death is when that crowd disperses
<shambles> errrrr
<shambles> that's just crap mindy
<Frib> yes those bits disperse and become worm food
<Paul> you say we fall to pieces
<Mindcrime> I don't mean on just a physical level
<Paul> hmmmmm nice
<Paul> bit like a jigsaw
<shambles> on a mental level too.....but that's just faith
<Frib> yes mind but that totally ignoes the fact that once you have no brain activity..
<Frib> that's it. Kaput.
<shambles> you can't back that up
<Frib> ignores rather
<shambles> besides
<Mindcrime> it's not faith, it's philosophy
<shambles> you break thoughts down enough, how do they remain specifically *yours*??
<shambles> okay
<Mindcrime> but why would you think that some Joe schmoe on an IRC channel could 
  possibly be right?
<shambles> justify it philosophically then
<Mindcrime> so I guess it doesn't matter (:
<shambles> because i'm on irc and i'm right =)
<shambles> look tart
<shambles> you have a p.o.v., justify it
<Mindcrime> brb, need cigs
<shambles> you're positing the point....you need to back it up
<shambles> bah
<Paul> hehe
<shambles> fag break = no excuse
<shambles> mmm
<Paul> nicotine attack
<shambles> fag break
<shambles> lol
<Paul> yes
* shambles goes for a "fag" break
<Paul> right...
<shambles> n/m
<Paul> i know what you mean
<shambles> mmmph
<Mindcrime> back
<shambles> hi
<shambles> go on...
<Mindcrime> we may be here a long time if I break it right down to the absolute truths its 
  based on (:
<Mindcrime> some simple concepts first
<shambles> absolute truths
<Mindcrime> how do you define 'thought'?
<shambles> skip over that
<shambles> points for debate
<shambles> nothing to agree on there
<shambles> start with your premise and work back
<Mindcrime> well, the initial premise is, we seem to be separate but are not
<shambles> yeah
<shambles> we are made up of little bits, mental and physical
<Frib> no, that is an important point
<Frib> cos I define thought as the electrical activity of the brain...
<shambles> bah
<shambles> i can't agree with that....
<shambles> there is far too much to go into there
<Frib> how can it work if it dont got no power?
<Frib> anyway.. go on
<Mindcrime> it cannot but it still exists
<Frib> btw don't make the common human mistake in being spectacularly arrogant, and 
  assuming we're more important than everything else
<shambles> i'm sorry, is your argument based on the assumption that thought can exist 
  without a mind to think it??
<Mindcrime> you've got to look at things in order here, bah
<Mindcrime> Ok
* shambles never makes that mistake....shambles IS more important
<Mindcrime> take a thunderstorm for example
<Mindcrime> do you think it thinks?
<Mindcrime> it lives and breathes?
* shambles fastforwards mindy's argument to the good stuff
<Frib> hehe
<shambles> |
<shambles> >>>>>>
* Paul ejects the tape
<Mindcrime> heh, forget it
<Mindcrime> :P
<shambles> look
* Paul puts in Big Jugs 2000
<Paul> wahoo!
<Mindcrime> I cannot help it if you cannot conceive of abstract concepts (:
<shambles> <Mindcrime> you want to know what death is.  Think of yourself as a crowd, 
  all the pieces that make you up.
<shambles> <Mindcrime> Death is when that crowd disperses
<shambles> d00d
<Mindcrime> Yes
<shambles> i'm fast forwarding you because i know all that shit and i know almost all of 
  it consists of uncertain points
<shambles> <Mindcrime> I don't mean on just a physical level
<shambles> i want the justification for that
<shambles> or rather
<shambles> i don't
<shambles> i want to know what you are implying, if anything
<Mindcrime> what I am saying is you are an illusion
<Mindcrime> what I am saying is that you live your life looking at a picture from a distance
<shambles> are you implying the person can exist as a collection of thoughts in any 
  form??
<Mindcrime> unable to see the smaller pieces that make you what you are
<Mindcrime> the concept of the "person" is lost, but the things that once comprised that 
  person still exist
<shambles> and??
<Frib> yes, the physical person
<Frib> the personality is gone tho
<Mindcrime> correct, because personality is not made up one one thing but many things
<shambles> yeah but is that saying anything more than: when a person dies, their body 
  splits into constituent molecules, and their mind splits into constituent "thought 
  pieces"??
<Mindcrime> this goes back to how you look at thought
<shambles> uh
<Mindcrime> human thought is a combination of many things, senses
<shambles> yeah yeah
<Mindcrime> I am saying is that your desk thinks
<shambles> i'm just trying to establish what your overall point is
<Mindcrime> that a cloud thinks
<shambles> evidently, mindcrime doesn't think :P
<Mindcrime> just not in a way you understand because it is what humans might call 
  primitive
<Frib> mind you've been watching too many cartoons :)
<shambles> or at least, not hard enough :P
<shambles> okay okay
<shambles> there is something of interest here....
<Mindcrime> First you have to understand thought before you contemplate the lacking of 
  it that you presuppose happens when death arrives
<shambles> human thought is somehow (necessarily??) related to a physical medium - 
  the brain - are you saying that thought can exist in other physical media (sounds like 
  you are), and thus your thoughts can exist in other physical media, after death???
<Frib> the problem here is that you have an arse description of 'thought' that I can't 
  agree with
<Mindcrime> yes, you still think, everything thinks
<Frib> seeing as how we can't get past that point, we can't continue :|
<shambles> the problem here is that mindy is treating thought as being absolutely 
  understandable 
<Frib> no
<Frib> some things just are
<Frib> without having or needing consciousness
<Mindcrime> contemplate the thunderstorm thing
<Mindcrime> I asked a question you never answered
<Frib> yes
<Mindcrime> do you think a thunderstorm thinks
<Mindcrime> period
<Frib> its a thunderstorm
<shambles> no
<Frib> no, I don't
<shambles> well
<Mindcrime> why do you presuppose it does not think?
<shambles> i can't answer that
<Frib> because I dont think it thinks
<shambles> UNLIKE SOME PEOPLE, i'm not claiming i can define thought
<Mindcrime> :)
<Frib> its the result of the interaction of certain stuff
<Frib> it doesn't decide that it want to be a thunderstorm
<shambles> and to be honest, anyone claiming to define thought needs a good hard slap
<Mindcrime> nor did you decide you wanted to be a human :>
<shambles> see mindy
<Frib> no, my parents did
<Mindcrime> but it needs things, it has a life span, it eats, it breaths
<Frib> I agree with shambler for the most part
<Frib> I am referring exclusively to human thought
<shambles> you have an interesting point....but you are basing it on points which always 
  have, and always will be, the subject of unresolvable debate
<Mindcrime> but you cannot look at it in a vacuum
<Frib> I don't claim to understand it by any stretch of the imagination tho
<Frib> all I am saying is that if you have no brain activity.. a human.. then yer dead
<Mindcrime> why draw a distinction between how a human thinks and a dog thinks for 
  example
<Mindcrime> Yes, Frib, dead :)
<Frib> because I'm not a fucking dog
<Frib> so I dont care what happens to the dog when he's dead
<shambles> i, on the other hand, am fucking a dog
<shambles> i do!
<Mindcrime> do you presuppose you and the dog are going to separate places? :)
<shambles> i'll have to get a new dog!
<Frib> but I suspect its remarkably similar to what happens to a human
<Frib> I don't presuppose we're going anywhere
<Frib> dead, and that's it
<Frib> thoughts cease
<shambles> yeah what is this places stuff?
<Mindcrime> but you don't
<Frib> what once was is no more
<Mindcrime> that's the point
<shambles> bah
<Frib> yea, you do I reckon
<Frib> :)
<shambles> you are wrong mindy
<Frib> lots of people want to believe something else
<Frib> most religions are based on it, yes?
<shambles> human is not just a collection of thoughts and physical pieces
<Frib> to comfort themselves I guess
<shambles> it;s a collection in a specific and very complex ordering
<Mindcrime> a human is an extension of a large environment
<Mindcrime> larger
<shambles> you remove the ordering, it's no longer a human
<Mindcrime> Let me put it one other way.
<Mindcrime> What if you were a finger on someone's hand?
<Mindcrime> you could not possibly conceive of the hand itself
<Mindcrime> only yourself
<shambles> you take someone's hand - it's a hand - but you puree it in a blender, it's 
  just mush, meat, no longer a hand
<shambles> the material is still there, but the ordering isn't
<Mindcrime> yes, conceptually
<Mindcrime> Yes
<Mindcrime> my point
<Mindcrime> the crowd disperses
<Mindcrime> the things that made it what it was are no longer in that order
<shambles> it's no longer a crowd
<Mindcrime> but still exist
<Frib> yer but it wasn't thinking
<Frib> it was just a bit of meat and bone
<shambles> you take a mind....take all the thoughts, all the mental activity
<Mindcrime> forget the finger thing
<Mindcrime> hehe
<Mindcrime> =)
<shambles> shred it all, removed all the links, all the order
<Mindcrime> It was a bad example
<shambles> what is left??
<Mindcrime> you dispersed
<shambles> (that's not rhetorical, btw)
<Frib> no, you didnt disperse it
<shambles> no
<Frib> you completely fucked it
<shambles> your parts, dispersed
<Frib> now it's brain puree
<Frib> with no thoughts
<shambles> you = your parts + their order
<Mindcrime> no parts, no order
<Mindcrime> guh
<Mindcrime> let's say I burn this chair
<Mindcrime> it's now a pile of fucking ashes on the floor
<shambles> let's say i burn mindcrime
<Mindcrime> is it a chair now?
<shambles> yes
<shambles> duh
<Frib> no
<shambles> it has no order
<Frib> it's not a chair
<Mindcrime> but it still exists
<Frib> it's a pile of fucking ashes on the floor
<shambles> and no longer the same parts
<Mindcrime> just not as a chair
<Frib> just like you said
<shambles> not as a chair
<Frib> yes but the chair doesn't have a brain, does it?
<Frib> you can disperse it all you like
<Frib> as a chair, its a non-thinking.. chair
<shambles> heh
<Frib> as a pile of ashes, it's a nonthinking pile of ashes
<Frib> you can disperse the brain all you like
<Frib> but where it was thinking before, it certainly isnt now
<Frib> not in any form
<shambles> you could even disperse the pile of ashes...disolve them in a solute, scatter 
  them across the land
<Mindcrime> it still exists 
<Mindcrime> that's the point
<Mindcrime> we're not talking about the living on of consciousness
<shambles> what are you talking about
<Mindcrime> living on
<Frib> um
<BARiUM> shambles: then you might be like 0.1 % adolf??
<shambles> living on??
<shambles> living on as what precisely??
<Vondur> he is adolf definitely
<Mindcrime> well, "living" may not be the right word :)
<Mindcrime> existing
<shambles> damn right
<shambles> existing
<shambles> no
<shambles> i disagree
<shambles> it's not you existing
<Mindcrime> your ancestors are still lying in wormy earth
<Mindcrime> but they still exist
<shambles> <shambles> you = your parts + their order
<Mindcrime> even if there's little to nothing left of them
<Frib> and that's your theory
<Frib> we just spent however long arguing that
<Frib> good lord (:
<BARiUM> you = lotsa quarks...
<shambles> hehe
<Mindcrime> your body is comprised of how many cells and how many micro-organisms? :)
<shambles> fuck the body
<Vondur> hehe
<shambles> that's not really of any interest
<shambles> the mind is where your point lies
<BARiUM> yes shambler, lets kill our bodys!
<Mindcrime> but the mind is illusionary
<Mindcrime> is its an extension of everything else
<BARiUM> the mind is electrical signals in our brains, nothing more...
* Frib nods
* shambles shrugs
<shambles> you don't even have to agree with that to disagree with mindy =)
<BARiUM> i hate all religious nonsens about souls and shit... so I think everything is 
  electrical impulses...
<Mindcrime> never mind, surely you can't grasp it :)
<Vondur> is lecture over?
<shambles> yeah
<shambles> time to go
<Vondur> oh
<shambles> cheers mindy
<Mindcrime> yup
...